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	<title>Phoenix Men's Counseling Blog &#187; money</title>
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		<title>Money Talks to Have Before Marriage (from the NY Times)</title>
		<link>http://phoenixmenscounseling.com/blog/2009/10/27/money-talks-to-have-before-marriage-from-the-ny-times/</link>
		<comments>http://phoenixmenscounseling.com/blog/2009/10/27/money-talks-to-have-before-marriage-from-the-ny-times/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:43:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phoenixmenscounseling.com/blog/?p=300</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Divorce tends to be emotionally gut-wrenching for the people who go through it (not to mention those around them). But most couples don’t realize that divorce can also be among the most ruinous financial moves anyone can make. Sure, you could bet big and lose on a single stock or money manager. Or your small [...]]]></description>
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<h1></h1>
<p>Divorce tends to be emotionally gut-wrenching for the people who go through it (not to mention those around them). But most couples don’t realize that divorce can also be among the most ruinous financial moves anyone can make.</p>
<p><span style="font-weight: normal; font-size: 13px;">Sure, you could bet big and lose on a single stock or money manager. Or your small business could go bankrupt, taking your life savings with it. But divorce and the costs that often come with it — from legal bills to the sudden need for an additional residence — affect far more people.</span></p>
<div id="articleBody">
<p>The risk that any marriage will end in divorce is about 45 percent, according to <a title="David Popenoe bio." href="http://marriage.rutgers.edu/codirectors.html">David Popenoe</a>, a professor of sociology emeritus at <a title="More articles about Rutgers" href="http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/r/rutgers_the_state_university/index.html?inline=nyt-org">Rutgers University</a>. The chances fall to about 40 percent for first marriages and decline further for college-educated couples, people from intact families and couples who share the same religion.</p>
<p><span id="more-300"></span></p>
<p>Given the various financial complications, I’ve long wanted to devote a series of columns to divorce and money. This week, I’ll start with a topic that could save some marriages if more people made it a priority. It’s crucial to air and resolve financial disagreements beforehand.</p>
<p>“It’s almost impossible to be hooked up to somebody who has the same balance of spender and saver as you, or expansiveness versus conservativeness or financial circumstances,” says Gregory A. Kuhlman, a New York City psychologist who runs <a title="About the programs and the practitioners." href="http://www.stayhitched.com/aboutus.htm">marriage success training programs</a>with his wife, Patricia Schell Kuhlman.</p>
<p>He adds that the mix gets even more volatile with second marriages, when couples may have children, ingrained financial habits and savings or other assets that necessitate the discussion of a prenuptial agreement. “Success in marriage is only partly attributable to compatibility. It’s about how you manage those differences and whether you have a style for doing so that is successful.”</p>
<p>What follows is a list of four financial issues that ought to be near the top of the discussion list before getting married. Please add to the list in the comments of the online version of this article.</p>
<p><span class="bold">ANCESTRY</span> When Lisa J. B. Peterson started her Boston-based financial planning firm,<a title="About Lantern." href="http://www.lantern-financial.com/whoweare.html">Lantern Financial</a>, she knew she wanted to focus her practice on young professionals. She quickly realized that many of them could use premarital financial counseling and built <a title="About Harmoney." href="http://www.lantern-financial.com/harmoney/">a program called Harmoney</a> around their needs.</p>
<p>One of the first things she asks clients about is what she refers to as their financial ancestry. “It’s looking back at your own personal past,” she says. “How did your parents deal with money, how does that impact how you deal with it, and how might that impact the couple’s relationship?”</p>
<p>Because so many of our money behaviors are learned, she asks couples to share their earliest money memories — whether their father hid money from their mother or how either parent fretted over the funds available. This can be a particularly intense discussion for people whose parents were divorced, and the stories are sometimes accompanied by tears. “Money is so emotional, and people forget that,” Ms. Peterson says. “You think that it’s just numbers.”</p>
<p><span class="bold">CREDIT</span> While it’s about the least romantic subject imaginable, your credit history holds a chunk of your permanent financial record. It follows naturally from the ancestry conversation, and Lantern Financial pulls <a title="More articles about credit scores." href="http://topics.nytimes.com/your-money/credit/credit-scores/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier">credit reports</a> and scores for its clients.</p>
<p>Molly Milinazzo and Scott Donovan, an engaged couple who live in the Dorchester section of Boston and are both 24 years old, were relieved to discover that their scores were within about 15 points of one another when they went through the Harmoney program in May. “A lot of people end up surprised, and it’s best to keep those kinds of surprises at bay,” Ms. Milinazzo says.</p>
<p>Full disclosure on the credit front is useful for two reasons. First, a credit report is, in part, a catalog of past mistakes and overall habits — <a title="More articles about loans." href="http://topics.nytimes.com/your-money/loans/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier">loan</a> payments you missed or department store credit cards you didn’t really need. That in itself is a good starting point for a discussion about what you’ve learned (or still need to learn) about handling money.</p>
<p>There’s an immediate practical side to this, too. If there are errors or low credit scores that a couple can improve, there may still be time to make the fixes so that the couple can get the best rates on a loan for their first home a year or two later.</p>
<p><span class="bold">CONTROL</span> Figuring out who will pay the bills each month may not seem to be an important conversation or assignment. But it gets tricky when both people want to take it on. “People understand that in a relationship, money is control,” says <a title="About Jeff." href="http://www.jkfinancialplanning.com/about-us.php">Jeff Kostis</a>, a<a title="More articles about financial planners." href="http://topics.nytimes.com/your-money/planning/financial-planners/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier">financial planner</a> in Vernon Hills, Ill., who walks engaged couples and newlyweds through a checklist of questions. “If you’re not paying the bills, you don’t know where the money is going, and you feel like ‘He doesn’t want me to go out with my friends’ or ‘She doesn’t want me to play in the fantasy football pool.’ ”</p>
<p>For two people who have both been on their own for a while and don’t want to give up doing the monthly financial chores their own way, Mr. Kostis suggests, at a minimum, regular household meetings complete with Quicken or other spreadsheets so that the person writing the checks can keep the other one up to speed. With more stubborn couples, he might suggest handing the controls back and forth at the beginning of each year.</p>
<p>Mr. Kuhlman, who explains the counseling approach he and his wife take with clients at<a href="http://stayhitched.com/" target="_">stayhitched.com</a>, says it shouldn’t be surprising that control issues come up constantly when talking about money. “It’s concrete, you can see it,” he says. “It’s not ephemeral or less measurable, like affection.”</p>
<p>A few things that he suggests couples discuss early on: If one person is making most or all of the money, does that person get to make most or all of the financial decisions? If you’re the car aficionado or have researched all of the local school options for the children, do you get to make the decisions about those things? “These are the kinds of things that don’t come out when you’re dating,” he says.</p>
<p><span class="bold">AFFLUENCE</span> Here’s another question that tends not to come up during courtship: Just how rich do we want to be one day? Mr. Kuhlman refers to this more politely as the “desired level of affluence.” “Are our career paths going to be something that pulls us together? Or, more often, are they things that will tend to pull us apart, where we’ll really have to be proactive to make sure it’s under control?” he says.</p>
<p>Mr. Kostis might put it a bit more bluntly, say to a spouse of an aspiring <a title="More articles about investing." href="http://topics.nytimes.com/your-money/investments/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier">investment</a> banker or corporate lawyer: Are you O.K. with acting essentially as a single parent, with your partner working 80 hours a week until the age of 80? “Not that there is a right or wrong answer,” he says. “It’s just about understanding, going into the marriage, what that would really mean.”</p>
<p>He adds that people in the financial advice business often joke that they spend half their time talking about money and the other half acting as marriage counselor. “But it’s the same communication style,” he says. “You’re giving people permission to be honest without having someone jump down their throat for giving the answer that they really want to give.”</p></div>
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		<title>On Couples Counseling: Money, Power, and a House of Cards</title>
		<link>http://phoenixmenscounseling.com/blog/2009/07/27/on-couples-counseling-money-power-and-a-house-of-cards/</link>
		<comments>http://phoenixmenscounseling.com/blog/2009/07/27/on-couples-counseling-money-power-and-a-house-of-cards/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 02:35:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phoenixmenscounseling.com/blog/?p=256</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Money helps, but if you don&#8217;t have the right foundation to creating a marriage or relationship, you are building a house cards. I talk with too many guys who still are committed to the idea that working their asses off, making money, and providing the right lifestyle for themselves and their wives or girlfriends is [...]]]></description>
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<p>Money helps, but if you don&#8217;t have the right foundation to creating a marriage or relationship, you are building a house cards. I talk with too many guys who still are committed to the idea that working their asses off, making money, and providing the right lifestyle for themselves and their wives or girlfriends is what is going to create happiness and a successful relationship. Wrong.</p>
<p>Money is never all satisfying. Even though it has evolutionary roots, the idea of being a mate who can acquire access to resources (i.e. money) has its limitations. And yet guys don&#8217;t seem to get this. They seem to think that they can buy their mate&#8217;s happiness, which may be true in a fleeting sense.  The sense of material acquisition can never be fully experience &#8212; there always has to be more. Money cannot become a surrogate for lack of the emotional connection or expression, or as a substitute for love and respect.</p>
<p>When we fight about money, it may be true that were fighting about other issues in our relationships. When we have no money, that may be absurd proposition, but I think that money is often the materialization of power and control dynamics within a relationship or household. When we try to gain control or power over our mate (to distract us from our own powerlessness or feelings of being out of control), there are various ways that we can do this. Sex and money are two common &#8220;power currencies&#8221; that keep tension between two people who are vying for more power and control in their relationship.</p>
<p>The psychology of money between couples is very subtle, and requires a keen eye and willingness to change behaviors to remedy this type of problem. Even just considering that money, or the lack of it, is the tip of the iceberg, and has many primary causes and secondary symptoms is a great start. Seeing money in this way, as a form of a psychological currency, is difficult, but it may shed some perspective on the way that you have traditionally dealt with it in your relationships.</p>
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		<title>Japan&#8217;s &#8216;herbivore men&#8217; &#8211; less interested in sex, money</title>
		<link>http://phoenixmenscounseling.com/blog/2009/06/07/japans-herbivore-men-less-interested-in-sex-money/</link>
		<comments>http://phoenixmenscounseling.com/blog/2009/06/07/japans-herbivore-men-less-interested-in-sex-money/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 21:18:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://phoenixmenscounseling.com/blog/?p=220</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[by Morgan Neill CNN TOKYO, Japan (CNN) &#8212; They are young, earn little and spend little, and take a keen interest in fashion and personal appearance &#8212; meet the &#8220;herbivore men&#8221; of Japan. Former CNN intern Junichiro Hori is a self-described &#8216;herbivore.&#8217; Author and pop culture columnist Maki Fukasawa coined the term in 2006 in [...]]]></description>
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<p>by Morgan Neill<br />
CNN</p>
<p>TOKYO, Japan (CNN) &#8212; They are young, earn little and spend little, and take a keen interest in fashion and personal appearance &#8212; meet the &#8220;herbivore men&#8221; of Japan.</p>
<p>Former CNN intern Junichiro Hori is a self-described &#8216;herbivore.&#8217;</p>
<p>Author and pop culture columnist Maki Fukasawa coined the term in 2006 in a series of articles on marketing to a younger generation of Japanese men. She used it to describe some men who she said were changing the country&#8217;s ideas about just what is &#8212; and isn&#8217;t &#8212; masculine.</p>
<p>&#8220;In Japan, sex is translated as &#8216;relationship in flesh,&#8217;&#8221; she said, &#8220;so I named those boys &#8216;herbivorous boys&#8217; since they are not interested in flesh.&#8221;</p>
<p>Typically, &#8220;herbivore men&#8221; are in their 20s and 30s, and believe that friendship without sex can exist between men and women, Fukasawa said.</p>
<p>The term has become a buzzword in Japan. Many people in Tokyo&#8217;s Harajuku neighborhood were familiar with &#8220;herbivore men&#8221; &#8212; and had opinions about them.</p>
<p>Shigeyuki Nagayama said such men were not eager to find girlfriends and tend to be clumsy in love, and he admitted he seemed to fit the mold himself.</p>
<p>&#8220;My father always asks me if I got a girlfriend. He tells me I&#8217;m no good because I can&#8217;t get a girlfriend.&#8221;</p>
<p>Midori Saida, a 24-year-old woman sporting oversized aviators and her dyed brown hair in long ringlets, said &#8220;herbivore men&#8221; were &#8220;flaky and weak.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;We like manly men,&#8221; she said. &#8220;We are not interested in those boys &#8212; at all.&#8221;</p>
<p>Takahito Kaji, 21, said he has been told he is &#8220;totally herbivorous.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Herbivorous boys are fragile, do not have a stocky body &#8212; skinny.&#8221;</p>
<p>Fukasawa said Japanese men from the baby boomer generation were typically aggressive and proactive when it came to romance and sex. But as a result of growing up during Japan&#8217;s troubled economy in the 1990s, their children&#8217;s generation was not as assertive and goal-oriented. Their outlook came, in part, from seeing their fathers&#8217; model of masculinity falter even as Japanese women gained more lifestyle options.</p>
<p>Former CNN intern Junichiro Hori, a self-described herbivore, said the idea goes beyond looks and attitudes toward sex.</p>
<p>&#8220;Some guys still try to be manly and try to be like strong and stuff, but you know personally I&#8217;m not afraid to show my vulnerability because being vulnerable or being sensitive is not a weakness.&#8221;</p>
<p>Older generations of Japanese men are not happy about the changes. At a bar frequented by businessmen after work, one man said: &#8220;You need to be carnivorous when you make decisions in your life. You should be proactive, not passive.&#8221;</p>
<p>Fukasawa said the group does not care so much about making money &#8212; a quality tied to the fact that there are fewer jobs available during the current global economic recession.</p>
<p>Japan&#8217;s economy recently saw its largest-ever recorded contraction and has shrunk for four straight quarters. Blue chip companies Sony, Panasonic, Toyota and Nissan all reported losses in May, and most are forecasting the same for the current fiscal year. Though still low by international standards, Japan&#8217;s reported 5 percent unemployment is the highest since 2003.</p>
<p>Hori agreed economics has played a role. When he finished university, &#8220;a lot of my friends were trying to work for a big company that pays well and I wasn&#8217;t interested in that. I am kind of struggling financially and my father is not very happy about it,&#8221; he said.</p>
<p>Fukasawa estimated some 20 percent of men are what she would call &#8220;herbivorous&#8221; and said their attitudes were influencing others. Indeed, she said, it was a return to the norm for Japanese men, rather than a departure.</p>
<p>&#8220;It was after World War II and the post-war economic growth that Japanese men gained the reputation as a sex animal through the competition with the West. Looking back beyond that time, older literature talks a lot about men with the kind of character we see in the herbivorous boys.&#8221;</p>
<p>Will these men simply grow out of this? Fukasawa said it was anyone&#8217;s guess.</p>
<p>Some of them may, but Japan&#8217;s image of masculinity is nonetheless changing.</p>
<p>&#8220;The men in dark suits are changing, too,&#8221; she said. &#8220;Today&#8217;s young people in dark suits are different from the baby boomers in dark suits. They are evolving, too.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>Economic Stress On Your Marriage</title>
		<link>http://phoenixmenscounseling.com/blog/2008/10/28/economic-stress-on-your-marriage/</link>
		<comments>http://phoenixmenscounseling.com/blog/2008/10/28/economic-stress-on-your-marriage/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
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		<description><![CDATA[I know everything in the media seems to be revolving around the economy: the market, home loans, business concerns, and credit crunches. I think that that stress may be also trickling into some unforeseen places, like your marriage or relationship. Sex and money are two common sources of stress, and both are highly underemphasized in [...]]]></description>
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<p>I know everything in the media seems to be revolving around the economy: the market, home loans, business concerns, and credit crunches. I think that that stress may be also trickling into some unforeseen places, like your marriage or relationship.</p>
<p>Sex and money are two common sources of stress, and both are highly underemphasized in most relationships. It&#8217;s not comfortable talking about these things, so what do we do? Sweep it under the rug, and go on using money with the negative, dysfunctional messages that have always characterized our relationship with money. </p>
<p>Maybe one of you spends to alleviate stress, or the other has a habit of overspending to compensate for guilt or shame in your relationship. Maybe you both live in separate fantasies about how money works in your life &#8211; and those fantasies don&#8217;t match the other one. The current economic realities have started to slap you in the face, and now you&#8217;re wondering why you needed that last minute trip to the Bahamas.</p>
<p>Money, and our relationship with it, is a very powerful agent (and container) for our dysfunctional messages and neurotic compulsions. Mix in our issues with our relationships, and we&#8217;re looking at a perfect storm of problems. </p>
<p>So, what helps this mess out? Stopping the hiding from your spouse about those gambling weekends you and your buddies had last month? All these are good starts, but there is more.</p>
<p>I think that understanding how to minimize conflict is another key. conflict will come from not being on the same page together if there are money issues. Honesty is essential. I think that money brings a lot of discomfort and fear, especially of the other spouse getting mad, and rejecting their mate or their spending habits. Spending habits are directly linked to one&#8217;s personal psychology, and rejecting the spending habits may risk rejecting the spouse, especially if their is excessive spending or addictive behaviors going on. Then, more intervention may be needed.</p>
<p>The economy has its ups and downs, just like a relationship. Taking preventative measures, and knowing how you will navigate (both in your finances and in your relationship) will calm the waters quite a bit. Knowing how to work with your spouse as a team, and not malign, blame, criticize or anything else to make the situation worse will help. Seeking professional help, such as with a good financial coach and a relationship counselor, will help minimize these issues.</p>
<p>- Jason</p>
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